Working with Giannis Kadoglou and Christian G. Cameron: Marathon Hoplite Run Experiment 2015: how many arrows you can shoot at a Hoplite in full Panoply charging you from a 100 meters before he’s up your lip?
One of the real treats of the Pen and Sword Tour 2014 with Christian G. Cameron, the historical fiction writer from Toronto Canada, was getting to meet Giannis Kadoglou and his lovely wife Smaro on the Plataean Battlefield. As I mentioned in an earlier post, this is where we did the Immortal Firepower against Greek Aspis experiments. I was fortunate that they were able to hang out with us for a couple of days, and they grew into most valued and treasured friends of mine.
Picures below: Giannis and Smaro, and Giannis and Christian.
One of the things that Giannis proposed to me at Plataea when we loaded his van with the reenactment gear he had brought with him for the Pen and Sword tour was that he wanted me to shoot arrows at him whilst he charged me in full Panoply from 200 meters. There are several reasons why. Firstly, according to Herodotus, the Greeks ran and charged at the Persians at the battle of Marathon. The Marathon battle was actually the first time the Greeks did it like this.. engaging at a full run.. Secondly, the classical Greeks had a Olympic games event called the Hoplitodromos, which is a run at full armor, so yes..running with full armor on was part of the military training of a Hoplite.
Were we to meet again at the Marathon 2015 Archeon Dromena reenactment event at the Marathon battlefield next year we should surely try this out. I like a challenge, and it is even more of a challenge because archerywise it is a journey into the unknown. I like a good puzzle.
1) I have to find out how the Greeks and Persians shot their bows to get some representative archery.
2) I have to find out a comprehensive and authentical speedshooting system.
3) It has to be safe for the Hoplite. I don’t want to kill or injure my friend. The Immortal versus Aspis challenge aptly demonstrates how dangerous and lethal my bows and arrows can be.
To solve the first part, I shot myself through my whole library of Classical Greek pottery archery pictures. That resulted in the Recreating Greek Archery paper, featured here in my first blog.
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You can use this approach even with shooting nock-less arrows, which might be even faster, but as the Greek archery vases show arrows with nocks we will have to play by these rules.
For the third part. I got myself a light bow and arrows with rubber blunts and fluflu fletchings to take the speed out of them, so they won’t hit too hard. Counterpart of this approach is that these are limited in range and that I only can cover the last 45 meters with aimed shots. Because of the fluffy fletchings, designed to create lots of drag, they are also very susceptible to wind.
We were able to carry out the experiment at the Marathon battlefield at the Marathon Archeon Dromena reenactment event on the 1st of november 2015 with the Plataeans, an international group with members from Canada, the US, the UK, the Netherlands and Norway, and the Rhesidae, Giannis and Smaro's group from Alexandroupolis Greece. Here a picture of our combined group in full gear with Ataelus the Mad Skyth in front.
Here is the video we recorded of the Experiment. The Hoplite Runners are Giannis Kadoglou, Christian G. Cameron and David Dudek, with Ataelus the Mad Skyth at the Bow. Video was recorded by Mike Brenan. Unfortunately we had to close down the last day of the event on sunday due to an announced ferry strike on monday, so most of the groups travelling by car had to get out of the country in a hurry,but at least that gave us plenty of playground to pull off the experiment. The weather didn't favor us though, with heavy wind at gale force and showers. We had to abandon the distance experiments because of this.
When we posted this on Facebook on Giannis's account , we were quite surprised by its popularity. In a few weeks it jumped to about 20.000 views and 200 shares. Of course it slowed down, but the total is now well over 20.000. Obviously we did something right here ! Apparently it is something that clarifies things and inspires discussion. And of course it is cool when you pull this off at the original site of the 490 BC battle of Marathon that gave the word Marathon a name wellknown around the globe. Good food for the armchair generals amongst us..As for the Experiment.. not bad actually: it takes 17 seconds before the first Hoplite- Dave Dudek- is up my lip. I managed to shoot 6 arrows in that time.
Some explanation from the point of the archer.
Ataelus the Mad Scyth
This posed a couple of limitations to the experiment.
- I shoot with a light bow (35lbs)
- I shoot with reenactment battle arrows that have a rubber blunt, and fluflu fletchings, which limit the range and decrease the arrowspeed. These fletchings are also very susceptible to wind.
The arrows that I shoot do not have a range of over 40 to 50 meters, and we were having a very strong sidewind on the track.
The first two arrows therefore are never going to reach the hoplites, so they are just shot into the blue,more precisely i aimed them at the haystack.
For the rest I tried to take aimed shots and try to hit them. The longer shots, higher I had to shoot them up the wind to have them blown back towards the target. That is quite difficult, the more when the target is running towards you. That is in fact very hard to judge how far out they are and where they will be on the moment of impact. You only see them getting bigger.
The closer they come the flatter I could shoot, and whacked one of the hoplites in the shield.. It ricocheted off his slanted shield and brushed his helmet. The last shot I could have fired as well. But it wouldn't have been a controlled shot, and moreover point blank with considerable power at someone jumping at you. You might have hit him in the nuts if you shoot in haste past or under his shield. Better to refrain from shooting and stay friends
The rate of fire is not superfast, but the intention was to shoot controlled shots at a long draw with a rate that would accomodate a heavier bow as well.
I also was quite preoccupied with not messing up my nocking of the arrows.. In any speedshooting technique that is the delicate part, and if you misnock one you lose a considerable amount of time. I cannot have these hoplites running that track over and over again in full armor, so it had to get it right the very first try. Six arrows is what i aimed for. That is not all that bad in about 17 to 20 seconds.
It is of course quite rudimentary, but when you do a bit of experimental archeology like this, you learn something.
A) Shield on shoulder in a run leaves a slanted surface, which covers quite a lot of the body on a frontal rush. We did test the effect of a slanted shield with a 115lbs bow, and the arrow glances off- but might hit somebody in the back ranks. B) You have that Arimnestos run effect, like Christian Cameron outlined in his novel Killer of Men. I was instinctively inclined to target the fastest runner - the most dangerous one- while the other hoplites made much easier and better targets.
C) The effect of visibility on a battlefield is very apparent. In this situation with all of the shrubs and trees on the Marathon battlefield, I could only spot them and could start to target them when they were already very close: 100 meters, aka only 17 seconds away before Hoplite impact ! The spot where we held the event is Schineas beach.. Pretty much the position where the Persian fleet was anchored. We do not know how the battlefield looked like 2500 years ago, but I suppose that with a very substantial force of some 20.000 camping there for already a couple of days, the location would have looked like already being hit by a swarm of locusts, and most probably had substantially less vegetation remaining than there is now. The view would have been better back then.I think that the persians with a clear view might be able to start shooting from 250 meters, so at the rate I was shooting here, that might be some 14 to 15 arrows per archer.
D) of course I keep my nerve here and keep shooting because we are not going to kill eachother in this experiment. I wonder how long I would have kept my cool as a Persian Archer before I would start to back away and run with a whole wave of bloodthirsty heavy armored Hoplites charging you that are obviously NOT going to stop because of your arrows. When they are at the tree perhaps? Or perhaps already earlier ?
The first one into the enemy will live forever!That heroic scene came to mind as an archer when having to face David, the fastest hoplite. With his slanted shield he is in fact very well protected from frontal shots and shots from the left (archers perspective) Only shots from the right have a chance of thaking the guy out. Point is.. will you do that onder stress, deliberately not targetting the guy that is closest to you ? If you space these 10 brave frontrunners out even, they will take the brink of the really dangerous archery.. the full power flat shots. Once they are in, the archery stops and the rest can close in as well and clean up. Being prepared or not.. I shot (or could have shot) 6 arrows. If caught unprepared I think it is a fair assumption to bring it down to 3 or maximum 4. I shot now at a rate of 3 seconds per arrow. Surprise will most probably loose you 2 arrows shooting time, and would you really have kept your cool and shot the point blank one in battle? I am currently back home and honing my speedshooting approack further with real arrows, not fluflu's.With slim and slender shafts I can hold 10 arrows at hand- so a stock of 11 arrows in the whole with one arrow already lined up. That might be sufficient to cover a whole charge from some 200 meters out. I can also shoot much flatter. With the hyper 115lbs bow i only need an elevation of some 20 degrees for a shot at 127 meters. Most certainly that will still pack a serious punch. I will conduct further tests when the weather allows, and measure the angle of impact at regular intervals during the test with bows of various draw weights. Once you start on this road of experimental archeology, you want to know everything
Comments from the Hoplites:
Christian G. Cameron
the hoplite view:
First, I would only do this with a truly expert archer, and Chris's skill was fantastic and I always felt safe. I appreciate in his comments that he was aware that it was unlikely that the armoured hoplites would run more than once.
That said, I want to discuss some bias inthe experiment first. Then my impressions.
1) the wind was very strong, and I think it slowed Chris and made him spend time judging his arrows.
2) I have two late Roman/early Medieval Byzantine manuals that specify that light bows shoot much faster and that's more valuable than heavy bows shooting more slowly. I take this as a tacit admission that it's not really about how many men you kill, it is, as always, about morale.
3) We can't judge the interactions ont he dday or Marathon... I noted that it took Chris a little time to prep his arrows and get them and his shooting hand in the right 'place' It's possible that we should start Chris with all the arrows in his quiver... that would be the 'surpise' or us running. But then, Herodotus says the hoplite sran 8 stades (1200 meters). And on top of that, looking at the terrain, it's also possible that much of the hoplite approach was hidden, f the new theory of the rough ground at the base of the Athenian camp is accurate. SO MUCH TO KNOW
In the actual experiment...
It was 127 meters from where I started to Chris's final position.
Once i started to run, I had no conscious thought. I seemed to fly -- it was very...transcendent. It think that, barring a killing blow, I would have continued to run, and I think that just possibly charging at a run is very good for the attacker's morale.
I was interested at how fast Dave, our unarmoured hoplite, was. He was about 2.5 seconds faster over the distance, although Giannis and both decelerated at the end.
Our entire run was up hill. In one place decidedly so, the rest just slightly up. There was also one place with bad footing.
I was very aware of the arrows. That was interesting, because in another scenario, one of the 'battles' I was able to knock an non-flu-flued arrow out of the air with my shield... But I could run, and read the archer. If the archers loosed in volley....
I saw some staggering problems with archery I'd really not directly experienced before, although I had considered them 'intellectually.' As we closed, any archer would have had trouble calling the range. We were FAST.
More important, as we got to short, or point blank, range, suddenly Chris was pointing his bow straight at us. Of course, only one or at most two ranks of archers could do that, if they were speed shooting,t he second rank would be slowed a great deal to avoid blue on blue incidents ie shooting each other. Multiple archer ranks are all very well for overhead shooting at long range, but very limited at close range. Is this why the hoplites ran?
Finally, watching the film, I can see that if Chris wants to survive turning and running, he needs to run when we're still about 30 paces out. In fact, in the reenactment battles, I was amazed how many archers I caught...I'm old... after they turned to run, because they waited too long. Readying a second weapon would also take time, but honestly, spear or sword and no shield against a hoplite sounds like a really bad idea to me.
My new suspicion about hoplite warfare is that the traditional co==form had a point blank missile contest. It's actually in the Iliad and in the vases, I just hadn't seen it well in my head. But now I do... the two armies move to withing missile throw (spear throw) and the braver men edge forward and try a cast... about 10 yards, maybe 20. Archers hide behind hoplite shields. They are potent. But there aren't many. WHen one side or the other gets rattled by archery and spear throws, the steady side either walks forward in good order, or charges, and the shot-up side probably dissolves.
This is fine for semi-ritualized war, but when these guys hit the Persians, they park at 30 yards 'blam' the Persiand and/or Saka have ALL archers with good bows. In three volleys the Greeks have lost 10% casualties and they break. i can see this happening several times, as the warriors try and convince each other that this time, they'll tough out the arrows...
Then Miltiades gets it and says 'run all the way through the beaten zone.'
Look, at 30 yards, a mass of hoplites is a glorious target. I'll bet two ranks of Chris Verwijmeren could virtually decimate the hoplites in about a minute.
But when they run at you, the whole morale of the thing changes. The archers never have a static target. Starting about 30 yards out, the archer is already intimidated... a wall of war cries, and all that armour...
It really doesn't mater that the cohesion of the phalanx is lost. Cohesion is great for beating other hoplites, but against Persians... get one or two men into the archers, and the shooting stops, and then everyone else arrives...
Anyway, I feel we have more questions now than we did before, but it was an excellent demo, I learned some things,a nd now I want to do it ten times in ten days with ten hoplites and ten archers... and so on...
Thanks Chris V., and thanks Dave and Giannis! and thanks, intrepid cameraman!
Comment from the Hoplites:
Giannis Kadoglou
The Hoplite view. From the hoplite's perspective i will only say that when you run, you simply run, there is nothing else. At least that was both Christian's and my experience, which we discussed a few hours later. At the beginning I was concerned about my helmet not being as stable without the crest as it was with the crest...then I was asking Christian if we run when the arrow is in the air or when it hits the ground, and while i was asking, Christian said GO, and off we were, more surprized than the archer, ha! But as soon as we were off, there was no helmet moving, there were no missfitting greaves, and i have no memory of the shield on my arm...I do remember that at some point i wondered if it was better to keep as close with Christian or try to surpass him if i could (it was not only an archery experiment but also a hoplitodromos), and then we were on Chris. I was uncertain if he actually hit my shield with the last arrow, i would have been more aware if he hit my thighs, or somewhere else...
Eager to do it again as soon as possible!
Ataelus Agrees! we should do this again, but then in a more massed setting, say 10 against 10? I know. 10 Hoplite volunteers in decent shape might be not that hard to gather. All they have to do is run. !0 decent archers able to shoot aimed shots at a quick rate? That requires skill, training and coordination. It is one of the things and challenges for the future. Can we get an archery squad together that can pull this off? Archery in Greek era reenacatment is almost non- existent. We'll have to build this from scrap. Any takers who would like to join the mission?
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